
Bryant Simon at Roy Street Coffee on Jan., 13, 2010
Bryant Simon is currently in town visiting Seattle on his book tour, and StarbucksMelody got a chance to catch up with him at Roy Street Coffee and Tea and ask him a few questions. Again, I am reminded that I am hardly a professional journalist and I need more practice at this, but here are some highlights from our conversation this evening:
We started the evening with him mentioning that just before meeting with me, he had met with an SSC partner (a partner at the corporate headquarters) who had contacted him to chat with him. I recognized the name of the SSC partner as someone fairly highly placed, and so I began with a question regarding that:
StarbucksMelody: You just had told me that you had met with a particular Starbucks person, who is fairly high level…having had a chance to speak face to face with someone like that, does it change any of your opinions of Starbucks? Did it get any serious questions answered for you?
Bryant Simon: No. I would never doubt that there aren’t people within the company who are really committed to an expansive vision for this company – That this company play positive role in the world. But that doesn’t mean that is actually how the policy plays out all the time. And the fact that it does play out sometimes, that doesn’t negate one of the larger points I want to make in the book is that Starbucks wants to insist at times that it’s different than other companies but I would say that more often it operates in a way that is similar to most companies.
StarbucksMelody: What’s your favorite drink at Starbucks?
Bryant Simon: My favorite drink really all I drink at Starbucks is coffee. I actually like Starbucks coffee.
StarbucksMelody: So which coffee do you like Verona, Sumatra, Komodo Dragon?
Bryant Simon: I actually only half the time pay attention.
StarbucksMelody: That’s very strange, if you like coffee?
Bryant Simon: I do like coffee but I don’t pay a ton of attention to what I’m drinking. The drinks were never the thing for me. When I first discovered Starbucks I drank Mistos.
StarbucksMelody: Back to the book. Did you have anyone proof it who actually is a Starbucks employee for factual accuracy? I notice some minor factual inaccuracies especially in the first half of the book.
Bryant Simon: Uh. No. And if I am wrong, probably, then I’m relying on some bad journalism and then my own fault, probably equally to blame.
StarbucksMelody: When you finally get to read my book review you’ll get to see the places I point out bad information.
Bryant Simon: Oh good. No but it would’ve been great to have that person. I would say that Starbucks, this is one of criticism… Starbucks held me … was not eager to help. So if I asked questions then they often went unanswered… You might be right…I went through the sources were offered to me. I had kinda a lot of people who worked there and left. Give me one factual error and I will tell you if it was my mistake.
StarbucksMelody: So somewhere in here you actually talk about the dress code. I think in the chapter on uniformity. And you give a description of it that is inaccurate. For example, you say that baristas can only wear khaki pants which is not true – they can wear black or khaki. You describe that they can wear ‘not too much perfume’ but even today, perfume is forbidden.
Bryant Simon: I got that directly from someone who worked at Starbucks.
StarbucksMelody: Then you also say that they have to wear a Starbucks shirt. They don’t have to wear a Starbucks-branded shirt, but they do have to wear white or black, and then there is some funny rule where if they wear a white button-down shirt, they have to have the same colored undershirt underneath. Like, you can’t wear, apparently, a black button-down shirt with a white undershirt.
Bryant Simon: I can live with that mistake! It doesn’t argue against the point.
StarbucksMelody: No, that’s actually what I’m writing for the book review …you’re getting a taste of it… That you make a lot of minor factual errors but they don’t really change the weight of your argument.
Byrant Simon: I can live with that. It’s a hard book to back check. In some sense…
StarbucksMelody: (interrupted! Bad Melody!) …you needed me…
Bryant Simon:..yeah I did!
StarbucksMelody: Okay, so on the point of authenticity…Something that had popped in my head: You talk about the interior of a Starbucks as “props”. The whole bean wall is a “prop”. The espresso machines as props, that this sort of creates the coffeehouse atmosphere, but one of the thing that popped into my head coming originally from California, seems like Californians never get out of their cars. The drive-thru is incredibly popular and in California you’ll meet people who have no idea what happens inside a Starbucks, they only use the drive-thru. How do you reconcile this incredible phenomena these people who don’t get out of the car but love Starbucks?
[[It was a rambly, badly-worded question. I was trying to ask, "How does one reconcile the success of the drive-thru in certain geographies while your book seems to suggest that customers need the props of the interior of the stores?" Fortunately, he completely understood me.]]
Bryant Simon: You know this is a really interesting question. I struggled with it. I don’t drive.
StarbucksMelody: You don’t drive?
Bryant Simon: Not really. I can drive but I almost never drive.
StarbucksMelody: Okay, so how do you reconcile this?
Bryant Simon: And so, I tried to get a sort of handle on the drive thru experience by sitting in stores. I’ve been through the drive thru like a couple of times. I think it is a fair comment that that is some place where the book isn’t very comprehensive. Because I thought about ‘how do I do research on this?’ ‘how does this shape commitment to community?’ ‘how did this add to sales’. I did stuff like sit in drive thru store and count …I did stuff like keep track of number of customers and taking notes. It was a way for me to get a sense of what people were doing in the stores.
StarbucksMelody: Have you visited the showcase stores like University Village and First and Pike yet?
Bryant Simon: I’ve been to First and Pike last time I was here. I have not been to University Village and I’ve been to the Pike Place Market store, I mean the original store.
[[In the next section, we kept interrupting each other a lot...]]
StarbucksMelody: Let’s talk about coffee sourcing for a second. This is one of those areas that is great fascination for me, but might not for you. In the indy coffee movement right now there is a strong movement towards “direct trade” branding and you see that at Intelligentsia on their website, and at Stumptown, at their website as well. So “direct trade” appears to be trying to create private equitable relations with farmers. It’s a great branding, and it’s a movement away from “Fair Trade”… this could be a whole ‘nother conversation…And it seems that consumers right now are not savvy enough to understand that “Fair Trade” is a label…
Bryant Simon: …nor are they savvy enough to know the difference between C.A.F.E. practices and Fair Trade…
StarbucksMelody: …uuuummmm… I think that is a little better understood, but I think they can’t distinguish between … like when you start throwing all of these things at them like “direct trade” “fair trade” and “C.A.F.E. practices” – it starts to become very blurry because people don’t really understand..
Bryant Simon: … except that I think that… well, I’ll wait for the question…
StarbucksMelody: ..well in some ways …
Bryant Simon: …this is a really thorny issue as you know…
StarbucksMelody: …well, I actually find it ironic because as the movement is in the direction of “direct trade,” it is actually moving closer and closer to what Starbucks has already been doing for well over a decade… and that is “private equitable relations with farmers”…
Bryant Simon: …Fair trade is still “private equitable relations with farmers” the state is not involved…
StarbucksMelody:… well it’s a license though, and that’s very very different…
Bryant Simon: …it is just a certificate run by a quasi-non-prof…there is no state involved…
StarbucksMelody:…but having a multinational, large profit with association fees is part of the reason that smaller businesses like Intelligentsia – I don’t know how small it is – are moving away from Fair Trade…
Bryant Simon: …no it’s not entirely the reason why Intelligentsia and Stumptown are moving away from what they don’t particularly like about Fair Trade is that they can’t control the quality of the bean… what they want to do is identify excellence …reward excellence…but Fair Trade wants to create equity. And it’s not that it’s not that they’re concerned with quality …
StarbucksMelody:..but every description I hear of “direct trade” sounds like fabulous re-branding of C.A.F.E. practices is all about… all about quality beans and responsible farmer relations…It is amazing to me, you probably know this, but in 2008 Starbucks had 24,000 C.A.F.E. practices farmers in Sumatra…
Bryant Simon: …I didn’t know that, that’s sort of staggering…
StarbucksMelody:…those are all little tiny farmers. It’s amazing that they could get that many farms to work with them cooperatively.
[[This part of the interview I did I really poor job of trying to get out what I wanted to say. I essentially was trying to say that his book's description of C.A.F.E. practices being primarily large farms isn't really right, and that Starbucks is in fact many of the same practices as indy houses, but indy houses have much better sounding lingo with "direct trade".]]
Bryant Simon: …it’s amazing that they could get that many to fill out the paperwork…Direct trade is all about the quality of the coffee…The problem at base, where they’re getting criticized is that they’re pulling people out of the cooperative…And this is for people who are concerned with the political issues involved, the fact that they’re pulling people out of the co-ops is a real issue…
StarbucksMelody:… oh, I don’t think most consumers understand that…
Bryant Simon: …I’m talking at source, at origin… if you go talk to people in Nicaragua there is a real big debate whether Intelligentsia is doing a bad thing or a good thing to Nicaragua coffee farmers and small farmers…but by singling out the ones who give them better beans and giving them long term contracts that is really the key here…
StarbucksMelody:…but this is exactly what … “long term contracts” is a Starbucks phrase…
Bryant Simon: …the thing about C.A.F.E. practices… the characterization I made about C.A.F.E. practices…I actually didn’t know what I was going to find…when I went to Nicaragua and went to talk to people, that was almost entirely based on interviews of two people who explained it to me, and talking to exporters, and then talking to Dub Hay as well who readily acknowledged that they weren’t buying from small farmers because they couldn’t get enough beans from them…When I talked to him, he didn’t say anything about Sumatra…he talked mostly about Africa and Central America…
StarbucksMelody: okay, next question…comes from me browsing John Moore’s website, and he has a blog entry that ‘there is no such thing as authenticity, only varying degrees of inauthenticity’ and so do you think that is what any major corporation has going on… because your criticism of Starbucks essentially is that it is not an authentic experience…
Bryant Simon: …yeah well I’d definitely agree that there is no platonic, no objective form of authenticity. It’s a search, a chase but also that there is a continuum in that there are things closer than what we represent as authentic.
StarbucksMelody: Do you think that Starbucks is authentic as it can be for its size?
Bryant Simon: I actually think that … I think you’re misrepresenting the way I say this … I think they set themselves as up quite frequently as the seller of authenticity and they’re on this tight rope where, it’s very important to them, they need to have enough authenticity to seem as though they have coffee knowledge…
StarbucksMelody: Starbucks has a big red cape, and carries with it the ability to make more people successful than just itself… isn’t it true that you’re trading on Starbucks success just to sell your book?
Bryant Simon: No, I’m not… no I mean, it allowed me to take a reasonably recognized company and try to use it as a way to interrogate the company and the culture; it happened to be that I am interested in coffee and I’m interested in coffee shops as…
StarbucksMelody: I don’t believe that you’re interested in coffee otherwise you’d be paying attention to whether you’re drinking Verona or Komodo Dragon or Sumatra …
Bryant Simon: I’m more interested in coffee shops…
StarbucksMelody: …you are interested in coffee shops, you are not interested in coffee sir!
Bryant Simon: That’s fair. [[Insert lots of laughter here]] And I never represent myself as a coffee expert. But I could have done this by writing about Target, any number of sort of recognizeable brands that are involved in… I could have done Eddie Bauer, The Body Shop….
StarbucksMelody: What can Starbucks do better?
Bryant Simon: I think there is a really easy answer. And that is to push in-store ceramic cups.
I want to say that throughout the interview, there was a jovial tone of voice. Bryant Simon is quite a pleasant guy who smiles and doesn’t get irritated when you argue with him. Very pleasant interview! Those were the highlights! I should probably explain that we talked much longer than what is given above, and I have provided some of the more interesting conversations above. When all is said and done, I would say that Bryant Simon and I can agree that the corporation faces certain challenges, due to size and growth, but fundamentally I believe that it is still able to deliver a relevant and meaningful experience, where as Simon would be more critical of this view. In my own view, Starbucks still offers a true respite between home and office, where as Simon focuses more on lost cachet and that customers are not having a genuine experience, with Starbucks unable to live up to its promises to the customer. Obviously, I understand that mistakes are made and there is no perfect company, but I also disagree with his claim that the experience lacks authenticity.
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If you like this blog post, you might also like my interview of Winter:
